{"id":13854,"date":"2026-08-24T15:02:42","date_gmt":"2026-08-24T23:02:42","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/inedc.com\/26\/?p=13854"},"modified":"2026-08-24T15:05:55","modified_gmt":"2026-08-24T23:05:55","slug":"ltva-spending-soars-has-tourism-kept-pace","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/inedc.com\/26\/government\/ltva-spending-soars-has-tourism-kept-pace\/","title":{"rendered":"LTVA Spending Soars. Has Tourism Kept Pace?"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><em>Opinion By Ken Skibum Curtzwiler, InEDC Guest Contributor. Aug 24, 2026<\/em><\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\"><strong>SOUTH LAKE TAHOE \u2014<\/strong> There is a question South Shore businesses should be asking about the Lake Tahoe Visitors Authority, and it has little to do with whether tourism matters.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">Tourism matters enormously.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">It matters to South Lake Tahoe hotels, restaurants, retailers, recreation businesses, tax collections and the thousands of workers whose livelihoods depend on visitors. It also matters across the California side of the basin, including El Dorado County, where the health of the South Shore visitor economy affects lodging, dining, recreation and transportation.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">The question is much simpler:<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\"><strong>Are we getting enough tourism for the money being spent to produce it?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">That question deserves a serious answer because the Lake Tahoe Visitors Authority has changed dramatically in financial scale.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">According to its latest IRS filing, LTVA reported <strong>$12.55 million in expenses and $9.95 million in revenue for fiscal 2025<\/strong>. Cause IQ, which compiles IRS filings, lists 18 employees for the organization in its latest filing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">Those numbers, by themselves, are not evidence of a problem.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">A tourism organization can spend more money and produce substantially more tourism. If additional spending generates new visitors, additional overnight stays, stronger midweek occupancy, conventions, shoulder-season business and measurable visitor spending, increased investment can make economic sense.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">The question is whether the production numbers have grown with the organization.<\/p>\n<h3>LTVA Spending Has More Than Doubled. Room-Night Growth Has Not.<\/h3>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">One of the clearest ways to examine the issue is to look at lodging demand.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">LTVA&#8217;s South Shore room-night reporting shows California-side lodging properties recording <strong>717,336 rented room nights in FY2018-19<\/strong> and <strong>685,334 in FY2024-25<\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">That is roughly 32,000 fewer rented room nights \u2014 about a 4.5% decline from the pre-pandemic benchmark cited in the organization&#8217;s reporting.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">At the same time, LTVA&#8217;s expenses increased from approximately <strong>$5.84 million in FY2018 to $12.55 million in FY2025<\/strong>, an increase of roughly 115%.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">The contrast is difficult to ignore.<\/p>\n<table>\n<tbody>\n<tr>\n<th>Measure<\/th>\n<th>Earlier period<\/th>\n<th>Recent period<\/th>\n<th>Change<\/th>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td>LTVA expenses<\/td>\n<td>$5.84 million<\/td>\n<td>$12.55 million<\/td>\n<td>+115%<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td>LTVA revenue<\/td>\n<td>$7.62 million<\/td>\n<td>$9.95 million<\/td>\n<td>+31%<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td>California-side rented room nights<\/td>\n<td>717,336<\/td>\n<td>685,334<\/td>\n<td>-4.5%<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">The comparison does <strong>not<\/strong> prove that LTVA caused room nights to decline.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">That would be an unjustified conclusion.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">COVID-19 devastated the travel industry. The Caldor Fire disrupted South Lake Tahoe and the surrounding region. Weather and snowfall fluctuate. Consumer behavior changes. Lodging inventories change. Vacation rentals compete with traditional accommodations. Hotel pricing influences demand.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">All of those factors matter.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">But they also make measurement more important, not less.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">A public-facing tourism organization with an annual budget exceeding $10 million should be able to demonstrate what portion of its spending produces incremental demand.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">LTVA&#8217;s FY2025 budget alone allocated approximately <strong>$6.72 million to marketing and $828,849 to sales<\/strong>, according to its budget documents.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">That is a substantial investment in selling the destination.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">The public should therefore expect a substantial accounting of the results.<\/p>\n<h3>Higher Hotel Rates Are Not the Same as More Tourism<\/h3>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">There is another trap in evaluating Tahoe&#8217;s tourism economy: revenue can rise even when demand does not.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">LTVA&#8217;s own research describes Tahoe as operating in what it calls a <strong>\u201chigh-rate, moderate-occupancy scenario.\u201d<\/strong> Its research reports have continued to track occupancy, average daily rate and room-night demand as separate measures. LTVA maintains a public archive of its research and monthly lodging reports.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">That distinction is important.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">If a hotel raises its average daily rate from $200 to $250, its revenue can increase even if it sells fewer rooms.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">That is good news for the hotel if the pricing strategy works.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">But it does not necessarily mean a destination-marketing campaign brought additional visitors to Tahoe.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">Hotels control their rates.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">A tourism authority should be evaluated, in part, on whether its efforts generate <strong>incremental demand<\/strong> \u2014 particularly demand that would not otherwise exist.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">That means midweek.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">It means shoulder seasons.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">It means conventions.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">It means new events.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">It means group travel.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">And it means visitors who choose South Lake Tahoe because the destination was successfully marketed to them.<\/p>\n<h3>The Convention Question<\/h3>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">This is where an older LTVA report provides an especially useful benchmark.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">In its FY2017-18 annual report, LTVA reported that staff and South Shore partners responded to group inquiries and supplied leads that resulted in <strong>8,200 trackable booked room nights<\/strong> for meetings, corporations, weddings, reunions and social groups.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">That is exactly the kind of metric today&#8217;s LTVA should continue publishing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">How many qualified leads were generated?<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">How many converted into definite bookings?<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">How many room nights resulted?<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">How much lodging revenue was generated?<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">How many events were new to Tahoe?<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">How many occurred Sunday through Thursday?<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">How many filled traditionally weak periods?<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">Those are business questions, not political questions.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">The arrival of the Tahoe Blue Event Center makes them even more important.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">A Douglas County presentation on the event center documented major conferences, sporting events and other activities following its 2023 opening. County officials have emphasized the facility&#8217;s intended role in strengthening the South Shore during slower periods.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">The event center&#8217;s economic impact should be measured independently from LTVA&#8217;s marketing performance.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">That distinction matters.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">If the event center operator books an event directly, LTVA should not automatically receive credit for the resulting room nights.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">If LTVA identifies a prospect, markets the destination, assists with the bid and helps close the deal, that contribution should be documented.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">If a hotel books the group independently, that should be identified separately.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">Otherwise, multiple organizations can claim credit for the same visitor.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">A transparent annual tourism scorecard would solve much of the problem.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">It should distinguish:<\/p>\n<ul data-spread=\"false\">\n<li>LTVA-generated leads.<\/li>\n<li>LTVA-generated definite bookings.<\/li>\n<li>LTVA-generated convention room nights.<\/li>\n<li>Event-center-generated room nights.<\/li>\n<li>Hotel-generated group business.<\/li>\n<li>LTVA-supported event room nights.<\/li>\n<li>Incremental room nights attributable to LTVA marketing.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">The result would be a much more credible picture of performance.<\/p>\n<h3>The Old LTVA Had a Different Report Card<\/h3>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">The FY2017-18 annual report is revealing because it reads like a conventional destination-marketing organization&#8217;s report card.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">It highlighted meetings and conventions, international sales, travel-trade shows, off-peak travel and efforts to attract visitors throughout the year.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">It reported the 8,200 trackable group room nights.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">It described international representation in markets including the United Kingdom and Ireland, Australia, China and Germany. It also described participation in major travel-trade events and relationships with Visit California, Travel Nevada and Brand USA.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">Today&#8217;s LTVA remains heavily involved in marketing and sales.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">That point should be acknowledged.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">Its FY2025 budget allocated more than half of expenses \u2014 approximately <strong>$6.72 million, or 50.5% \u2014 to marketing<\/strong>, with another $828,849 for sales.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">So the argument should not be that LTVA has abandoned tourism marketing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">It has not.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">The legitimate question is more precise:<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\"><strong>What measurable incremental tourism output accompanies the dramatically larger investment?<\/strong><\/p>\n<h3>More Than $12 Million in Expenses Requires a Better Scorecard<\/h3>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">At this financial scale, website traffic and social-media engagement are useful indicators.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">They are not enough.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">LTVA&#8217;s latest annual-report presentation highlighted substantial digital reach, including millions of website sessions and lodging referrals. Those metrics demonstrate marketing activity and audience engagement.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">But activity is not necessarily economic impact.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">A campaign can generate millions of impressions without producing a single additional hotel stay.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">The public needs the second half of the equation.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">A tourism authority spending more than $10 million annually should be able to publish a concise annual dashboard showing:<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\"><strong>Total destination room nights.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\"><strong>Incremental room nights attributable to LTVA.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\"><strong>Midweek room nights.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\"><strong>Shoulder-season occupancy.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\"><strong>ADR and RevPAR.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\"><strong>Qualified group leads.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\"><strong>Convention conversion rate.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\"><strong>LTVA-generated group room nights.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\"><strong>New conventions recruited.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\"><strong>New major events recruited.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\"><strong>Average visitor length of stay.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\"><strong>Visitor spending.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\"><strong>Cost per incremental room night.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\"><strong>Tourism return per assessment dollar.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">That would give lodging operators, policymakers and the public something far more valuable than a collection of marketing statistics.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">It would provide an ROI calculation.<\/p>\n<h3>Event Spending Deserves the Same Scrutiny<\/h3>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">LTVA&#8217;s event spending deserves a similar examination.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">Its FY2025 budget allocated approximately <strong>$3.32 million to events<\/strong>, with a large portion associated with the American Century Championship.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">The American Century Championship is a nationally recognized South Shore event. It generates substantial exposure for Lake Tahoe.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">There is no reason to diminish that value.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">But exposure and incremental visitation are not identical.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">A major July event during a traditionally strong tourism period serves a different economic purpose from an event specifically designed to fill hotels during November, April or another soft period.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">Both can be worthwhile.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">They should simply be measured differently.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">For publicly supported events, the public should be able to see:<\/p>\n<ul data-spread=\"false\">\n<li>Incremental attendees.<\/li>\n<li>Percentage of attendees from outside the region.<\/li>\n<li>Hotel room nights generated.<\/li>\n<li>Average length of stay.<\/li>\n<li>Visitor spending.<\/li>\n<li>Public investment per generated room night.<\/li>\n<li>Whether the event occurred during a period of demonstrated lodging need.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">That would move the discussion away from competing narratives and toward measurable results.<\/p>\n<h3>This Is Not an Argument Against Tourism<\/h3>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">It is important to be fair here.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">The available data do <strong>not<\/strong> prove that LTVA has failed.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">They do not prove that LTVA&#8217;s marketing does not work.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">They do not prove that every dollar spent above the FY2018 level has been wasted.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">And they certainly do not establish that LTVA is responsible for the broader changes in South Shore lodging demand.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">Tourism is complicated.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">The Caldor Fire happened.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">COVID happened.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">Weather happens.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">Lodging inventories change.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">Vacation rentals alter the competitive landscape.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">Consumer spending changes.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">Economic conditions change.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">The South Shore itself changes.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">Those realities make simplistic before-and-after comparisons inadequate.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">But they do not justify a lack of accountability.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">They make accountability more sophisticated.<\/p>\n<h3>The Question for El Dorado County<\/h3>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">For residents and businesses on the California side of Lake Tahoe, this is not merely a Nevada tourism question.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">South Lake Tahoe is part of the economic ecosystem of El Dorado County.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">When overnight visitation changes, businesses feel it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">When midweek lodging is weak, restaurants and retailers feel it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">When shoulder-season demand grows, workers and local businesses benefit.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">And when millions of dollars are collected through tourism-related assessments and public revenues, residents have a legitimate interest in knowing whether those dollars are producing the intended economic return.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">The LTVA&#8217;s own stated mission is to promote the South Shore as a year-round destination for economic benefit and quality of life.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">That mission is entirely reasonable.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">The standard for evaluating it should be equally reasonable.<\/p>\n<h3>So, Are We Getting Enough Tourism for the Money?<\/h3>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">That should be the central question.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">Not whether LTVA supports environmental stewardship.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">Not whether destination management has value.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">Not whether its employees work hard.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">And not whether Lake Tahoe needs tourism marketing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">Of course it does.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">The issue is whether an organization whose expenses have more than doubled can demonstrate a corresponding increase in the tourism it was created to generate.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">The most conservative comparison available raises that question.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">LTVA spending has risen sharply.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">Its marketing operation is substantially larger.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">Its responsibilities have expanded.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">Yet California-side reported rented room nights remain below the FY2018-19 benchmark.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">That does not prove failure.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">It proves the need for better measurement.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">LTVA should publish a 10-year performance graph showing spending alongside incremental room nights, occupancy, group business, visitor spending and other measurable economic outcomes.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">If those lines rise together, LTVA deserves credit.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">If spending rises substantially faster than tourism production, policymakers and lodging businesses should ask why.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">And if the graph cannot be produced because consistent historical performance measurements were never maintained, that is itself an important finding.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">A tourism authority spending more than $10 million a year should be able to tell the businesses and communities funding it exactly what they received in return.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\"><strong>That is not criticism of tourism.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\"><strong>That is how tourism should be managed.<\/strong><\/p>\n<h3>Sources and Public Records<\/h3>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">LTVA&#8217;s public research archive provides access to its monthly lodging and destination reports. <a href=\"https:\/\/ltva.org\/data-statistics\/page\/2\/?utm_source=chatgpt.com\">Lake Tahoe Visitors Authority Data &amp; Statistics<\/a><\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">LTVA&#8217;s FY2017-18 annual report provides the historical 8,200 trackable group-room-night figure and details its earlier meetings, conventions and international-sales strategy. <a href=\"https:\/\/ltva.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/11\/LTVA-Annual-Report-2017-18.pdf?utm_source=chatgpt.com\">LTVA FY2017-18 Annual Report<\/a><\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">The FY2024-25 LTVA budget documents show approximately $6.72 million budgeted for marketing and $828,849 for sales.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">The latest IRS filing information compiled by Cause IQ reports $12.55 million in FY2025 expenses, $9.95 million in revenue and 18 employees.<\/p>\n<p class=\"isSelectedEnd\">Douglas County public records provide information on the Tahoe Blue Event Center&#8217;s opening and event activity.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>The Lake Tahoe Visitors Authority now operates on a vastly larger financial scale. But one basic question remains: Has tourism production grown with the spending?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":13855,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"jnews-multi-image_gallery":[],"jnews_single_post":{"format":"standard","override":[{"template":"7","parallax":"1","layout":"no-sidebar-narrow","sidebar":"default-sidebar","second_sidebar":"default-sidebar","sticky_sidebar":"1","share_position":"float","share_float_style":"share-normal","show_share_counter":"1","show_view_counter":"1","show_featured":"1","show_post_meta":"1","show_post_author":"1","show_post_author_image":"1","show_post_date":"1","post_date_format":"default","post_date_format_custom":"Y\/m\/d","show_post_category":"1","post_reading_time_wpm":"300","post_calculate_word_method":"str_word_count","show_zoom_button":"0","zoom_button_out_step":"2","zoom_button_in_step":"3","show_post_tag":"1","show_popup_post":"1","show_comment_section":"1","number_popup_post":"1","show_author_box":"1","show_post_related":"1","show_inline_post_related":"1"}],"image_override":[{"single_post_thumbnail_size":"crop-500","single_post_gallery_size":"crop-500"}],"trending_post_position":"meta","trending_post_label":"Trending","sponsored_post_label":"Sponsored by","disable_ad":"0","subtitle":"South Shore tourism spending has grown sharply. Now businesses deserve clearer evidence of what those millions produce"},"jnews_primary_category":[],"jnews_social_meta":[],"jnews_override_counter":{"view_counter_number":"0","share_counter_number":"0","like_counter_number":"0","dislike_counter_number":"0"},"footnotes":""},"categories":[6,5],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-13854","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-business","category-government"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v28.3 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/product\/yoast-seo-wordpress\/ -->\n<title>LTVA Spending Soars. Has Tourism Kept Pace? - Placerville NewsWire<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"LTVA spending has more than doubled while California-side room nights remain below 2018-19 levels. 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